"Or consider 2 Timothy 1:9: '[God] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.' Saving grace was given to us before the ages began. That is, it was given to us before there was any human sin to save us from. Therefore, grace was planned before human sin was there to need it. This means that God's plan to save us through grace was not a response to human decisions to sin. Saving grace was the plan that made sin necessary. God did not find sin in the world and then make a plan to remedy it. he had the plan before the ages, and that plan was for the glory of sin-conquering grace through the deaht of Jesus Christ."
It really challenges the traditional view that Christ and redemption were "Plan B," because we screwed it up in the garden. Rather, the Truth is that before the world God was gracious and loving and redemptive, and sin was necessary for Him to display those aspects of His character to us. And sin still has a purpose for us in our walk; He convicts, we repent and are forgiven and love Him more because we're forgiven much and become more like Him in the process.
What do you think about this??
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Gotta say friend, I don't buy this one bit. I think if you consider the eternal nature of God and view all things as happening simultaneously and eternally from his perspective (if such a consideration is possible), you can interpret that verse to mean that God knew sin would happen and Christ would save us before time began (or when, or after, these time-based words don't really make sense in his context). Therefore it's a little silly to suppose that God created sin to reveal himself to us. I think there are many, many passages in the Bible which point out that God did not intend for sin to enter the world, that Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey. And I think this is critical to our faith.
I disagree with Piper. I believe that God created us to be in a relationship with Him. Why would He create us if He knew we would hurt Him by sinning? Why would God set Himself up for such pain?
Ok, ok. Justin, I'll give you that since God is beyond time, this verse can be interpreted as you suggest. But the pt is that redemption and Christ's death and resurrection were all always a part of the plan. It might be a bit too far to say that sin reveals more fully God's character to us; I'm just trying to suggest that there is a redemptive purpose to sin and evil; that mysteriously it was part of the original design--He uses it as a means to accomplish His ends(Luke 22:31ff, Job, James 2, Rom. 5). It seems dangerous to me that sin entered the world beyond God's intention--Is God in control in such a world? What do you say to this notion that what we ended up with was Plan B?
And EA, I didn't intend to suggest that God doesn't desire fellowship and relationship with us. As I said in the last line, God desires a deeper fellowship with us, and conviction, repentance and belief bring that. But you ask good questions -- why do you think sin entered the world?
Good thoughts ya'll...thanks for commenting
I'm going to have disagree here as well. The idea that sin was necessary for grace to take hold is sort of like suggesting that war is necessary for peace. The troubling scenario this brings about is that it sounds like God has this great plan of grace and decides the way to implement that plan is to unleash death and suffering on humanity which are the byproducts of sin.
Now I believe that Christ was there at the beginning and that God did know that we would turn from Him. In that way it wasn't plan B. As far as grace being there from the beginning, could you not suppose that the actual creation of humanity was an act of grace. We were given a soul and God entered into a relationship with us by no action of our own. Life itself is a gift of grace from God; different from the grace that comes by Christ's sacrifice but grace nonetheless.
Scott, I'm with you 100% on this. Two years ago I wrestled with how a God who is truly all-knowing, created the universe, and is in 100% control of all things could allow sin to enter the world. There were two options in my mind: 1) God allowed sin to enter the world for some reason, or 2) God is not really in control.
I refuse to accept #2 as it's clearly against what the Bible teaches, so I was left to wrestle with what reasons scripture might exist for God allowing sin to enter the world. In the course of study, I learned a lot about God's desire to be glorified to the highest level possible by his creation. I was talking with a pastor friend of mine who asked me what God's greatest attributes were. I told him (in no specific order) grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love. He agreed, and commented that these attributes of God would not be necessary in a perfect world. Some of God's greatest attributes would be lost in perfection. As a result, he allowed Satan to do what he did, though he did not make it happen himself, so that through the course of history the story of His Glory, and no other story, would be the dominant story.
With this view, I'm fully able to embrace him as a loving Savior, a Father, and a God with whom I have deep and sweet relationship. Thanks for the blog and challenge, you should tweet more of your blog links!
thanks guys...anyone that's read this book want to weigh in? Did I misinterpret? Or is Piper just off?
Scott - this is devolving into a predestination question, and I don't really want to go there. I will say I believe sin was a part of the plan in that God knew it would enter the world before he created it, and gave us Christ to conquer it. But I also believe God did not intend for sin to enter the world, he did not want it, and it was possible for Adam and Eve to choose obedience and prevent it from happening. In this sense, sin was planned but not necessary. I believe this is what the Bible teaches.
I believe God is sovereign and he is not the author of sin. How these things fit together is a mystery and a paradox which I have little hope (or honestly, at this point, desire) to understand in this life.
I think it helps to view all of God's story as one, seamless event which happens simultaneously, in which no part is really separable from another, because I think that in some eternal way I cannot hope to understand that is how God sees it. But maybe this just helps me.
By the way have you considered using embedded comments? It would make commenting on your blog a lot easier!
Scott
I'm with you on this one as well. I think the Revelation 13:8 is worth bringing up here. It says "...everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." This is just another example of the need for Christ and his sacrifice in view before the foundation of the world.
I think it is important to make the distinction between the eternal decree of God and the out-workings of that decree. Everything that has happened and will happened was decreed by God before the foundation of the world, including the fall of man and the redemption of sin in Christ. The out-workings of that decree are what we see in time. I agree with a few of the other commenters that God is obviously outside of time and I think that is precisely why it makes sense to say that God decreed that sin come into existence. He decreed what will be before he actually put it into action. If this was not the case, then what happens in time would surprise Him and He would not be in control.
Moving on to the subject of grace, I also agree with others that there is some measure of grace in the nature of our being created. But the "glorious grace" mentioned in Ephesians 1 is clearly talking about that grace shown in the redemption of those whom God chose before the foundation of the world. And it is this saving grace that is part of God's eternal character that would not have been shown if the fall had not happened. Therefore the fall had to happen. It could not not have happened. It was eternally decreed. And at least one of the reasons for that is so that we would give praise to this glorious redemptive grace of God in Christ.
I think Piper's comment is a cousin to the Catholic teaching of "felix culpa," which is that had we not fallen we would never have had the blessing of being restored. You can read more about this on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_culpa
Good discussion everyone. I learned a lot...hope you did too
Was sin/evil there before God? Was there a force outside of God that devised it? Sin proves that there is only one God.
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